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You're kidding me... That's in my EULA??
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Conteúdo fornecido por Mark Miller. Todo o conteúdo do podcast, incluindo episódios, gráficos e descrições de podcast, é carregado e fornecido diretamente por Mark Miller ou por seu parceiro de plataforma de podcast. Se você acredita que alguém está usando seu trabalho protegido por direitos autorais sem sua permissão, siga o processo descrito aqui https://pt.player.fm/legal.
That’s in my End User License Agreement?? Yes, you really did agree to give an app full access to your phone when you clicked that “Accept” button. Companies know you’re not going to read it. That’s why they make it so long and bury the devil in the details. That’s where we come in. Yes, Joel's a lawyer. Yep, a real lawyer. We believe you should know what you’ve agreed to without having to spend 2 hours reading that End User License Agreement (EULA) and all of its attachments. We’ll do that for you and just explain the ‘good’ parts. Each week, we tear apart a EULA, or a category of EULAs, from one of the most popular apps in the marketplace. We’ll explain what the most egregious terms are, where those terms appear in the agreement, and warn you of what kind of access you’ve given over just to be able to play that little game on your phone. We’ll look at the agreement in terms of camera access, contact lists, photos, private messages, privacy policies... anything you’ve got stored on your phone and tell you, “Hey, that social media app now has access to your private messages. Did you really mean to do that?” Subscribe to “That’s in my EULA??” on your favorite podcasting platform before you press that next “Accept” button.
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12 episódios
Marcar/Desmarcar tudo como reproduzido ...
Manage series 3460314
Conteúdo fornecido por Mark Miller. Todo o conteúdo do podcast, incluindo episódios, gráficos e descrições de podcast, é carregado e fornecido diretamente por Mark Miller ou por seu parceiro de plataforma de podcast. Se você acredita que alguém está usando seu trabalho protegido por direitos autorais sem sua permissão, siga o processo descrito aqui https://pt.player.fm/legal.
That’s in my End User License Agreement?? Yes, you really did agree to give an app full access to your phone when you clicked that “Accept” button. Companies know you’re not going to read it. That’s why they make it so long and bury the devil in the details. That’s where we come in. Yes, Joel's a lawyer. Yep, a real lawyer. We believe you should know what you’ve agreed to without having to spend 2 hours reading that End User License Agreement (EULA) and all of its attachments. We’ll do that for you and just explain the ‘good’ parts. Each week, we tear apart a EULA, or a category of EULAs, from one of the most popular apps in the marketplace. We’ll explain what the most egregious terms are, where those terms appear in the agreement, and warn you of what kind of access you’ve given over just to be able to play that little game on your phone. We’ll look at the agreement in terms of camera access, contact lists, photos, private messages, privacy policies... anything you’ve got stored on your phone and tell you, “Hey, that social media app now has access to your private messages. Did you really mean to do that?” Subscribe to “That’s in my EULA??” on your favorite podcasting platform before you press that next “Accept” button.
…
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12 episódios
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×This is the final episode of our 10 part series on End User License Agreements or EULAs for short. I'm Mark Miller, Executive Producer and host of "That's in My EULA??" When Joel MacMull and I thought about this series, our assumption was that we'd reach a point where the agreements we were analyzing would start to look alike, and that's pretty much what's happened. What we're going to do in this episode is to do a quick review and go over the highlights of the series, the highs and lows, to give you some quick insights into what we've discovered. At the end of the episode, I'll go over what we're planning for Season Two and how you can become involved. Stay with us. Episodes in Season One AI and Chat Engines TikTok YouTube Credit Reporting Agencies Slack Zoom Amazon Canva Charles Schwab ChatGPT takes Steven Schwartz to Court Listen Available on all your favorite podcast platforms: https://thats-in-my-eula.captivate.fm/listen That's a Wrap That's a wrap for Season One of "That's in my EULA??" When we come back in Season Two, Joel and I will be looking at legal cases currently being considered or actually in session in the court system. From what we're seeing, AI and GPT are going to get some major exposure in the coming months, and we'll be on top of that. We'll also be looking for ideas from you. You can leave us a note and suggestions on our LinkedIn page at Sourced Network Productions. Thanks for staying with us through the first season. We'll see you in Season Two.…
The transcript and resources for this episode are available at WhatsInMyEULA.com. There was a historical case presented in federal court in New York City last week. Lawyer Steven Schwartz was hauled into court for using unresearched, unsubstantiated output from ChatGPT to defend a client. For those of us following the case, it's a chance to get a firsthand look at a judge who will be setting precedents around the country, if not the world, when it comes to using AI output in a courtroom. Joel MacMull has presented before Judge Castel, who is presiding over the case, a few times. So he and I planned on meeting in the courtroom that day. Yeah, life got in the way. Instead of few days after the court date we got on a call with our friend and technologist, Shannon Leitz, to discuss the legal aspects of the case, as well as the future of using this type of technology to do research. How can we trust output from an AI engine? When is it appropriate to use an AI engine to do professional research? Should Schwartz have known better or do we believe him when he says he had no idea that ChatGPT could just make things up? Should we have sympathy, empathy, or disdain for what he did. Joel, Shannon, and I will give you our opinions and insights, but then it's up to you to decide. What are the legitimate uses of AI in its current state? Is it an experiment? Is it really changing the course of history? Does it have a legitimate use on the open unfiltered market? Like I said, you decide. But get the facts first. That's what we're about to do. Stay with us.…
1 Hey, Charles Schwab! Is that really in your EULA?? 15:39
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15:39You can subscribe to have access to all episodes of "That's in my EULA??" on your favorite audio streaming platform, or go directly to the website at https://whatsinmyeula.com/. All free, all ungated. From Mark Miller: As I started looking at the Charles Schwab terms of agreemnt, I started thinking, "This is what I expected." This is a financial institution that has a whole different set of laws that have to be applied to what they're doing. What impressed me though, as I was looking at this is it was relatively clear what I was looking at. There was a lot of it but it was relatively clear what I was looking at. From lawyer Joel MacMull: And I think that's important because this is really intended to be consumer friendly, because effectively I think it has to be. We have all these disclaimers, for example, about margin calls and short selling and all of that, because they need to make these disclosures. One of the provisions in here talks about investment advice. This appears at Subsection 28. And these are the kind of, consumer friendly disclosures I think they have to make. It says "You agree and acknowledge", you being of course the account holder and these terms would apply upon creating a self-directed account under the Schwab brand. It says, "Unless we otherwise agree with you in writing, Schwab will act only as your broker dealer and not as an investment advisor. And your account will be a brokerage account and not an investment advisory account governed by the Investment Advisors Act of 1940." That's important because what they're saying is we're not an investment advisor. You're creating this account. It's gonna be entirely self-directed.…
1 Hey Canva! You’ve got a really good EULA. 25:53
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25:53Mark Miller: You and I have been discussing, will we ever see anything that's not onerous or incomprehensible. This looks like something written by people for people. Joel MacMull: That's exactly right. We have seen some real dogs over the last two months and this was a pleasant surprise. And what's really interesting about it, and we're going to hopefully get into this, is that you've got your main terms of use and then one of the hyperlinks, of course is their content license. The content license here, given the nature of the service, it essentially is a design platform is near and dear to my heart because of course it implicates intellectual property, namely matter that would be copyrightable, matter that is licensable, matter that may be amenable to trademarks and they've really done, to their credit, a bang up job to simplify what, even based on the handful of other agreements we've looked at to date, is just a morass of nonsense. Hat tip to our friends down in Australia. Mark Miller: The thing that you and I have always looked for, which shows up here is, can you talk to me in language I can understand. One of the things they've done is they've had a little bit of lawyerese in their paragraphs, and then underneath each section is a big blue box that says, this is what we just said. Joel MacMull: Yeah. Yeah. And I thought that was great. I really did. I thought that was great. It makes it digestible for the layperson. The interesting thing is as I was reading these blue boxes, is what does that mean for the paragraphs above it, and it's overall enforceability. Because while presumably nothing is contradictory, you can appreciate that that which appears in the blue boxes is certainly less fulsom than that which appears above it. And so I wonder if for purpose of enforceability, would there ever be a tension there internally in the document? Now for as good as the document is, it's not perfect. I thought maybe we would quickly go through both the main agreement and the content license agreement.…
Joel MacMull : Our listeners listening with care may say, these guys can't even get on the same page as to what the appropriate Amazon Terms of Service are necessarily that would apply to the average bear, but I would submit to you that in of itself is demonstrative of the larger issue of just how complex and how utterly unconscionable, and frankly idiotic, these various agreements are. I like to think of myself as at least an average lawyer. In looking at a document entitled AWS Service Terms that was last updated on May 3rd, 2023, which is, I read it, is intended to apply to both, among other things, Amazon resellers as well as, what I will call purchasers like you and I as consumer purchasers. It is a document that I have my assistant print out that's gotta be at least 50 pages in length. Mark Miller : Well you're lucky. You're lucky it's only 50 pages. Joel MacMull : It's not numbered. I mean it's not numbered. And of course, that's by design. Mark Miller : I have to say though, Joel, this is the reason you and I started this show. We've been playing with other ones for the last six episodes. But this one goes to the heart of what the major complaint is. Joel MacMull : ...and I think you're absolutely right. When I wanted to take a look at the Amazon terms of service, I was interested, and admittedly naive, in thinking about what it would entail. When someone says Amazon to me, they are the world's largest online retailer, and I foolishly think that's the entirety of the scope of their services. But back to this agreement, which I'm referencing, which contains, by the way, no more than 96 subsections, okay? 96 subsections. I forgot that the breadth of Amazon's touch these days is far broader than just online. It's infinite. And what makes this I think so silly is that there are parts of this agreement and offshoots when I dug in a little bit to the hyperlinks that I don't even understand what they're talking about.…
1 Hey, Zoom! Is that really in your EULA?? 24:30
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24:30It is rare, that I will give a hat tip to good lawyering. But there's a lot of great things going on in this paragraph, and it's sub paragraphs, that I certainly must, in the interest of full candor, acknowledge is a pretty smart, impressive series of provisions. Now, that doesn't mean that they're not particularly onerous, to someone who's adverse to Zoom, but if you're Zoom, you've got a pretty impressive tool here for reasons we can certainly discuss. In looking at the Zoom agreement, I actually just focused on the five or six paragraphs that are specified in the top half of the page. I did that because I suspected that this effective date, which of course was just last week, March 31st, 2023, to the extent that amendments were made, they were, and I guarantee you they were because I suspect Zoom was concentrating on those sections. Given that my expectation is these are the freshest sections, I wanted to walk through, perhaps why Zoom has taken the action it has and in particular as it relates to, I know a provision that's near and dear to your heart, as well as mine, the arbitration provision in paragraph 27.…
1 You're kidding me... that's in Slack's terms of agreement? 28:44
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28:44We're choosing to talk about Slack because virtually every technology company is using Slack. It's ubiquitous. It's almost like de facto standard for communication. One of the things that I found, and maybe you appreciated this too, is when I went through the documentation, just pages and pages and addendums, whatever. But it's not legalese. It's not legal jargon, which I very much appreciate it. From lawyer Joel MacMull: Yeah. All right. So, so, so First of all, let's talk about the manner in which it's drafted. To their credit, a lot of it is very much in plain speak. I mean, you know, Sometimes when you're going to talk about the exclusive jurisdiction in which a litigation can arise, it's going to get a little legalize. That's just the nature of the business. Mm-hmm. Um, But to its credit, it's very much written in plain speak, and I think it's digestible. Would like to hope it's digestible. For everyone to, to, to, to, to sort of user agreements we've looked at, It suffers from, I think, Uh, and, and, and, and I go back to what I think I said very early on, of you know, this kind of um, "incorporated by reference herein" and then those incorporations then leading back to no less than I counted five separate agreements.…
1 Experian, Transunion, and Equifax: What's in their terms of service? 23:04
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23:04From lawyer Joel MacMull: These three entities - Experian, Transunion, Equifax - whether we like it or not, sit on a lot of personal information of ours. I don't know, frankly, the authority by which they're able to collect that information. We certainly know that they sell that information, but there's no way for us short of falling off the grid in a Ted Kazinski style fashion, to not essentially have our data at least be picked up by these companies. From Mark Miller: A lot of the times when we dive into this, there's obfuscation because there's so many documents When I looked at this each of those had 10 or 15 different documents that they were linking to. Is there a real expectation that real users are going to read this stuff? That's what we're going to explore in this episode of "That's in my EULA?? We were surprised at what we found. We think you might be too.…
1 YouTube and Google: What's in their EULA? 24:14
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24:14Get the full transcript at : whatsinmyeula.com Mark Miller (MM) I tried to read through the terms of agreement for YouTube. There's obfuscation going on here on purpose. Joel MacMull (JM) I agree with you wholeheartedly. First of all, let's talk about where the terms and conditions appear on the YouTube page, which I would submit to you, is not for nothing. If you go to youtube.com and you look at it, you've got all of these tiles and you've got all of these various links on the left hand side, shorts, library, your movies, and tv. You've gotta scroll all the way to the bottom in which they have terms and conditions hyperlinked within a whole bunch of other hyperlinked one word phrases such About, Press, Advertise, Developers, Terms, as well as a plug for NFL Sunday ticket, which if you're an NFL fan, I understand as a YouTube subscriber, you'll be eligible to enroll in later this spring. MM Let me jump in, Joel, because I just did what you just said and I didn't realize I had to pop the menu open. So as I was looking for the terms of agreement on the YouTube page itself, it's an infinite scroll. You can never get to the bottom of the page, and that's where most of that stuff usually is, is in a footer. That's right. So what you just said is you had to expand the menu at the top of the page on the left hand side, and that's when I saw it at the bottom finally.…
1 What's in the TikTok Terms of Service, with lawyer Joel MacMull 20:50
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20:50When I first came up with the idea to do a show on Terms of Agreement, TikTok was the first that came to mind. I called Joel MacMull immediately. He just laughed and agreed it had the great makings for an expose as to what’s in the thing. Now, with all the noise and foot stomping in Congress, it seems a natural time to release this episode of “That’s in my EULA??”. If you’ve got TikTok on your phone, and a couple 100 million of you do, you’ll want to hear what Joel found in his research. From Joel: “The first, and this is in no particular order, but this is at least how my brain processed them... the first is obviously how draconian and or one sided these terms are.” If that doesn’t pique your interest, then this show’s not for you. But I bet you’re ears perked up, didn’t they? Stay with us and find out how draconian TikTok terms of service really is.…
1 Investigating the AI and Chat Engine EULAs 24:37
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24:37When Joel and I first started kicking around the idea of t doing a podcast on End-User License Agreements, it seemed like a no brainer. No one reads these things, and yet we all click the “Accept” button on a downloaded app. We decided we’d become the town-criers on this thing called a EULA, and start exposing what’s really in the terms and how enforceable are those terms. This is the first show in the series and we’re already going off script. With all the talk about ChatGPT, OpenAI, Jasper, and Perplexity engine, I figured I’d get Joel to drill down and talk about what you should be concerned about from a legal aspect. When you signed up for ChatGPT, as a 100 million of you did in the first couple months, what did you really agree to? Joel’s going to hit the highlights on that, plus we’ll cover the legal aspects of using the content from those engines, and how it might affect your professional career. Strap in, you’re in for a ride.…
Transcript and resources for this episode available at WhatsInMyEULA.com When was the last time you read the terms of agreement before clicking the “Accept” button after downloading a new app? Before I started this podcast, if you’re like me, that would be “never”. I would venture to guess that no one, not even the most detail oriented, go-by-the-book person has EVER completely read the terms of agreement, along with all the links and attachments, when giving access to a new app. That’s what “That’s in my EULA??” is about. This is the host of “You’re kidding me… That’s in my EULA??”, Mark Miller. Each week, I’ll be joined by my lawyer friend, Joel MacMull to “go deep” and explore the far reaches of the End User License Agreements and Terms of Agreement on major apps such as TikTok, YouTube, Credit Reporting Agencies, and the new GPT engines. Joel’s been a lawyer for 20 years. He’s got first hand experience in some of these issues, will reference court cases and legislation, including the possible changes to Section 230, known as the Communications and Decency Act. That’s the act that protects social media platforms from being sued by what’s being presented on their platforms. Here’s the way it’s going to work. We’re going to choose a EULA or a general category of EULAs each week. Joel and I will research the EULA of the week and then talk about what we’ve found. I’m coming from the perspective of a consumer. I bring up the most egregious things I find in the terms of agreement, while Joel focuses on the legal aspects of what is defensible, what is unenforceable, and what just doesn’t make sense in these agreements. Our hope is two-fold. First, you'll get a general sense of what’s in the terms of agreement when you accept the loading of a new app on your phone. And second… well I’ll let Joel explain it to you. “The more I look at these, the more I shake my head and just think to myself, do our representatives know what's going on here? “We're going to start a grassroots campaign right here, and you and I are going to get a bill sponsored where Congress is going to put into place, that there needs to be a fair disclosure. There needs to be, at least as it relates to technology companies in the grand scheme of things in which are using your data, and I don't care whether that data is text, whether that data is video. I want a succinct single document where I can read what the terms of service are, and insofar as they may also implicate privacy issues, which they do, I want that laid out for the average consumer in a way that is accessible and digestible. ”That's become my personal mission. I invite you to join me in campaigning for this.” That lays it pretty bare, right there. If you’re interested in what your kids have agreed to when joining a new gaming platform, if you’re concerned about giving up your rights to some app, if you’ve ever thought, “What did I just agree to?” after you clicked an “Accept” button, you’re in the right place. “You’re kidding me… that’s in my EULA??” is launching in the last week of March. You can follow us on your favorite podcasting platform, or listen to the show and get resources for each episode at WhatsInMyEULA.com. And we promise you won’t have to click an “Accept” button to listen to the show. If you're interested in talking with Joel about some of the issues in this episode, shoot him an email. Joel G. MacMull | Partner Chair, Intellectual Property, Brand Management and Internet Law Practice (973) 295-3652 | JMacmull@mblawfirm.com…
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