EP157 After The Judging Is Done

The Mastering Portrait Photography Podcast

So after three days of judging images for the British Institute Of Professional Photographers, it's time for me to step down from my role as Chair Of Awards And Qualifications. I have been in the role for three years and it is time for someone else to pick up the reins and run with it (if that isn't a mixed metaphor.)

I have loved doing this and if it weren't for a million things I have to go on and do, I think I would do it forever! So as I drive home from my last round of qualifications - possibly the best one I've ever been involved in - here are a few musings of things I have spotted.

This is a 'Tales From The Land Rover' edition so please forgive the audio quality and any mild road rage!

Enjoy!

Cheers
P.

If you enjoy this podcast, please head over to Mastering Portrait Photography, for more articles and videos about this beautiful industry. You can also read a full transcript of this episode.

PLEASE also subscribe and leave us a review - we'd love to hear what you think!

If there are any topics, you would like to hear, have questions we could answer or would like to come and be interviewed on the podcast, please contact me at [e-mail].

Transcript

EP157 - After The Judging The Exhausting Journey Home

So I'm driving home from Birmingham, just in a service station, having bought the most expensive cup of coffee in the world, um, but I need one. It's been a long few days, um, and I am beyond exhausted.

Reflecting on Judging and Achievements

I've just been judging for the British Institute of Professional Photographers. I was there as chair of judges and quals for the last time, maybe not for the last time ever, but certainly for the last time, uh, in this current guise.,

it's been three years, I've done it for three years, and I need some time to be able to do some other things, it's nothing more than that, that's all I need, it's just to be able to do some other stuff, because we're building up Mastering Portrait Photography, which, by the way, we actually got another royalty statement through this week, um, for the book, ten years later, and the book is still .selling, I cannot believe it, uh, selling all over the world, and it's such an honor to have something out there that is still ticking over, you know, a few hundred copies, I'd say it might be more than that, but it's hundreds of copies, every year, around the world, it's still in print, after ten years, and while much of the book I would update now, it's still reasonably, uh, current, the pictures certainly stand up for themselves, as do the Uh, all of the notes.

I think the one thing I would change is the opening chapter, which is all about current cameras. And of course that's changed in 10 years. They're not at all like that. And that's kind of what we're doing. We're building this incredible website called Mastering Portrait Photography. That is what I always loved, which is images and explanations and diagrams and ideas.

And I have a bookshelf from floor to ceiling full of those kinds of books. So, it's time to stop judging for a moment, and I've just spent the past few days doing it. I'm on the M40 heading south. I'm Paul, and this, this is the Mastering Portrait Photography Podcast.

Well, wow, what a few days it has been, and what an honour and a privilege it's been to have the role of Chair of Qualifications and Awards for the world's oldest. Photographic society or association, um, just beyond belief that I was asked to step into that role and it saddens me to leave, particularly after these couple of days because it's been just the most exciting thing.

It's been absolutely wonderful, but I have to do it. We have to find a way of getting a little bit more time to do the other things that I need to get to. So.

Stepping Down from Chair of Judges

I've stepped down, I stepped down a few months ago and said I'd run it to the end of the year, so I've just finished the last set of qualifications that I'll be chairing, for now anyway, and the last annual printmasters competition.

I've got one more round of monthly images to, uh, chair the judging for, and then I am done for a little bit. So I'm not done judging, I'll still be judging both for the, sorry, for the BAPP, I'm sure. And for the Societies where I'm going to be in January, we're presenting again in January at the Societies Convention in London.

Um, I'm doing a couple of workshops, a couple of masterclasses, but I'm also going to be judging. I'm also leading the judging for the Click, uh, Click Light event, uh, sort of towards the end of next year. I already know that's in the diary. So it isn't that I'm stepping away from judging, it's just I'm stepping away from the role that I currently have at the moment.

Um, because it's just too time consuming, it's all I can do. Um, so what have the last few days, uh, been?

The Joy and Challenges of Judging

Well, we've judged hundreds of images, and I, it is, it's hundreds and hundreds of images. We've judged eleven panels, there are six judges. I chair a team, there's myself and six incredible photographers across all genres, um, of our art form.

commercialphotography, portraitphotography, weddingphotography, landscape, wildlife, you name it. Uh, this broad skillset in the judges, um, was in the room. Six just wonderful people, um, and it's that I think I'm gonna miss if I stop judging, of course. It's being in a room with these massive talents who make me laugh and inspire me every time we do it.

So we have judged 11 panels. of which five, uh, came out as a fellowship standard. That's the highest grade we can offer is fellowship. Fellowship at the British Institute of Professional Photography. I got my fellowship, uh, 2011, I think. I should know the dates to my own life, but I don't. Um, and I remember then wondering what, where that would take me.

What did it mean? And where it's taken me is to where I am right now. We've written a book. I've chaired all sorts of associations, I've chaired, I've been the Chair of Quals and Awards for the, um, for the British Institute of Professional Photographers. Um, I've travelled the world, I've worked on cruise ships, I, just, so much stuff has happened, and it's all thanks, or at least it was triggered, by me doing my quals.

Uh, so five fellowships, uh, three licentiates, um, three of the panels we saw of the eleven sadly were unsuccessful, um, but of the others, eight were successful, and a couple of those were uplifts, which means they came in at one grade, and they didn't just get the grade they came in for, um, they were deemed to be so good, they were uplifted to the next level, the next qualification, and they both came out at fellowships.

And I've had the chance to see and talk to the most wonderful photographers and their images. One panel in particular really just blew me away. And it's rare that I look at a panel and I wish I'd taken those images. There are panels where I love the images, but they're not really my field or it's just, you know, a different thing to what I do.

But this was a panel of portraits of artists and creatives and artisans, famous artisans, some of them unknown artists, others, and the way the work was presented, the way the author was so down to earth and humble about what he did, the way he'd captured characters in a moment in time, the way he'd styled each image in each studio, everything about these images just made me wish.

I had captured them and that's how it's left me. But what a way to leave, right? What a way to finish my tenure, um, after three years in the role. What a way to decide it's time, um, and although I'd taken the decision a few months ago that it was time for me to step away, I couldn't have foreseen that the last round of judging that I would chair like this would be simply the best couple of days of my time in the seat.

Absolutely. uh, amazing. So as I said, we've just judged the printmasters 2020. I don't know if I did say it or not. Obviously when I'm driving in the car, I'm on the motorway, uh, concentrating on the driving is my priority. Speaking into a microphone is very, very low down the list. Um, so of course I'm making it all up as I go along and trying to remember what I've said.

I have no idea. Did I tell you that, um, we've just been judging the printmasters as well as some qualifications? I've no idea. So that's what we've been doing two days, one day printmasters, another day. Quals, the print masters, hundreds of prints, hundreds and hundreds of prints.

Insights on Photography Competitions

So what have I learned over the two days?

Uh, well, let's sort of think of, uh, some things. Firstly, and this sounds obvious, but I'm in the same way that McDonald's print caution is coffee might be hot on the side of their coffee. It's such an obvious thing, yet people don't. So I'm telling some of the obvious things and yet people don't read the rules.

Start there. Whatever else you do, read them. Don't ignore them, because we will find out. We have had one image confirmed as being generated by AI. I doubt it's the last. We're gonna see more. The judges spotted there was something not quite right about it, so we dug in. Sure enough, AI. That's not to say there isn't AI we've missed.

AI now is so good that if it's presented to us, Unless we forensically check every file, I don't know what else we're supposed to do. Um, we spotted it, we got it checked, that's disqualified. There are others maybe in there, um, that have more than a smattering, um, of artificial intelligence involvement. But, you know, uh, the tools will get better and better and better at spotting it.

Um, and maybe it'll get to the point where in all competitions we have to ask to see The original RAW file, but even that, you know, you can fake a RAW file. So, what do you do? Uh, either way, absolutely brilliant. Um, also if it says it has to be a commissioned image, that does mean you can't use images from workshops.

Um, commissioned means you had a client who paid you to take the picture, that's what a commissioned image is. And of course, when images of models start popping up, this In a room with six of the most experienced photographers in the UK, there's always going to be one of them that's like, I know that model, I've seen those pictures, I know where that was taken, I know who took that.

Um, and so yeah, sure enough, we had to ring around a little bit and find out, um, whether some images were, um, within the rules, um, and the confirmation, uh, came through one way or the other. And of course, just read the rules. Uh, I say this every time I do one of these mop ups. Paper and mounts. Paper and mounts.

Paper and mounts. If you have any white paper showing of the printing paper, it's a good idea that the matte is either significantly different in colour to that paper, or is exactly the same as that paper. Um, one of my favourite, um, ways to mount an image, and there were quite a few we've seen over the past few days, The idea behind this was to have a white paper border around the print that sits then inside the mount.

So there's a gap between the edge of the actual ink on the paper and then the cut of the mount. It creates a really beautiful sense of space as it sits into the opening. But the paper needs to be the same colour as the mount. Otherwise it looks really weird. I suppose you could have a black mount and white paper.

Yeah, that would be fine. But a slightly off white mount and a pure blue white paper probably are not going to sit that comfortably, uh, together. So think about that. Think about how the whole image appears.

So what else?

The Importance of Mentorship

Well, good mentors matter. I might write a title. I might, might, maybe I should write a podcast on that and that alone. Good. Mentors matter. They really do. We can see the work coming through from great mentors. Um, because the panel is considered, the way it's laid out is considered, the image selection is considered, um, having somebody else's eyes on to help you step outside of yourself.

The problem is when you're looking at your own images is you are by definition attached to them. You can't get around it. That's the way it should be. You are attached to your own images, which means you're not looking at them objectively, or at least most of us can't look at them objectively. I'm sure there are photographers out there who profess that they can.

I can't. I need another pair of eyes on. I have a mentor, and having a mentor is utterly, utterly crucial. Um, someone who can not just cast their eye over what you're doing, but help and shape and guide, give you ideas, bounce stuff off of you. Someone, ideally, who you respect, that you think what they've created and maybe what they can drag out of you will just make you a better photographer.

That's your mentor's role. They don't have to necessarily be a better photographer, they have to be someone you respect. Um, so have a good mentor and talk to them. Being meant, I've said this, there's a podcast on this somewhere in my history. That being mentored, being a mentee is a skill in and of itself.

It's not just a case of a mentor telling you how to get better. It's you driving that, you asking for the right help. You listening to what a mentor tells, tells you, you deciding what from what they're advising, what to do with it. You won't do everything a mentor suggests because your mentor is them and you are you.

You know, unless your mentor is your twin or something, they're always going to tell you things that, well, I can see how that might work for you, but it probably isn't what I want to do for me. That's fine. That's completely fine. As long as it's a rational decision that you're going to do something slightly different.

It's not just, nah, can't be bothered because can't be bothered, got no one nowhere. So have a good mentor, listen to them, use them, drive it, uh, and, you know, It just, you can see it in the panels that came through where the mentor, the relationship with the mentor, uh, was incredibly, incredibly good.

Staying Current in Photography

The next thing I'm thinking of is be current.

And what do I mean by be current? Well, the trick, I think, is to love the world in which you work. Look at the art, look at the Tele, films, listen to the radio, be influenced by the world in which you work. Don't just, you know, it's the temptation always, I think, when you do things like fellowships, is to say, well, that's defined me, that's who I am.

And we see it sometimes in the work, and frankly, we see it sometimes in the judging, where, um, just because it's always been, So that's the way it always will be. And that's, that's, that's not a great way to be. I don't think, you know, mix with new photographers, new generations of photographers. If you're like I am just that little bit more experienced in the industry, you know, my influences now have to broaden into the younger market because that's not my natural fit.

So I've got to get out there and explore what's being created. On channels that maybe just maybe I wouldn't normally gravitate towards. You know, I can't say I am a TikTok king, um, but I do go on there. I do keep an eye on what's going on. I try to learn from it. Um, Insta, I have a big account on Insta, um, which right now is still reasonably current, but it won't be in the same way that Facebook probably isn't anymore.

So, be current, be aware of what's on magazine covers or the latest and greatest websites. Have a. I don't know, have a link on your browser that gives you the top ten designed websites in the world at any one time. You can do these searches. In which case, have a look at what they're using as the imagery.

As a photographer, that's our job. You can have a style, of course you can. But, you should all, always be absorbing and assimilating. And, some of what we've seen over the past few days, It felt a little bit like it was looking backwards rather than looking forwards and we should represent the future as photographers, not just what's gone on before.

Again, I'm not saying throw away the classical techniques, of course I'm not, because they're there for a reason. Cliches are cliches for a reason and rules are essentially just cliches. So don't ignore it, but interpret it in new and exciting ways. Style images. Finish images, use post production, try different things that it would never have occurred to you to do.

Just be exciting and be current.

Capturing Genuine Connections

Uh, for you wedding photographers or frankly anybody who photographs people who are in love, uh, or people I suppose because there's an extension to this, um, one of the things that came up a little bit was a disc or various discussions around whether A couple had been photographed and it looked like they were genuinely and authentically in love.

The connection between the couple, um, there needs to be movement in that. It's like choreographing a dance when you have a couple sort of, um, in each other's arms or really close to each other. Don't think like a photographer, what do you want the end, what do you want the shape of them to be? Think like a choreographer and think, what would I like the movement to be?

And then as a, as a photographer, think, okay, now I've got the movement and the shape and the emotion and the rhythm of this, what moment do I want to hit the button? Now of course you can pose it statically, that's not a problem, but it should feel alive. It should feel like they're moving, that they are in harmony with each other.

There needs to be a connection between them. And then ultimately, there needs to be a connection with you, the photographer. Or more importantly. The viewer who sees the image in the end and to do that they must connect with your camera now You're holding the camera So they have to connect with you and then you have to guide them towards the lens if it's eye contact that you want But there has to be they have to like you and you have to genuinely like them It shows in the images when there's a relationship between the subject and the photographer You can feel it.

It's, it's sort of there in the picture. It's there in their eyes and their muscles. It's there in the timing of the shot that you take. It's there in the way their shoulders rise or fall or the way he's not just holding her or she's holding him or she's holding her.

Building Connections Through Photography

It's the way that they bring each other closer together with laughter or emotion of some sort.

So have a connection with your with your subject and get them to have a connection with each other. Um, one of the biggest things I've thought of, I've lost track of where I am, of course, because I'm in the car and it's, the road's busy.

The Importance of Entering Competitions

Um, but one of the things that occurs to me, it's the most important thing you can do with, um, competitions and qualifications is do them.

Actually get off your hands and do them. I know some very good photographers who think that they won't win something or they won't qualify. And they certainly won't if they don't enter, that's certainly true, but if they do enter, who knows? I know some of the categories that came through for the print competition this year were eminently winnable.

There are great images in those categories, but I know photographers producing equally good images Who had they simply entered, stood as good a chances as anybody else? Why not? I obviously can't enter because I'm, uh, judging. But with another association I enter all the time quietly behind the scenes. I don't really make a fuss about it because if I'm not entering, if I'm not pushing my style and my techniques, how can I consider that I'm qualified to either mentor or judge others?

So I do it too, and yes, it's heartbreaking when your images don't. Well, of course it is. It can be expensive and soul destroying. You know, it's a real problem. But, equally, it can be hugely rewarding. So you, you can't win if you don't enter. You can't qualify if you don't try.

Learning from the Process

And the process, particularly with qualifications, the process is so much more important than Than the qualification itself, though that is absolutely not , not how it feels.

It's only afterwards when you can say these things. You never, anyone if, if anyone's ever going for qualification. Um, and I say to them, um, you know, uh, how do you feel? And they're like, ah, it doesn't really matter. It's just a process. It's a journey that I'm like, no way. No, no, no, no way. I know you are not telling the truth.

Why? You wouldn't put yourself through that kind of expense and that kind of pain and discomfort if it was just about the learning. But the learning is the bit of the puzzle. When you look back with hindsight, whether your panel is successful or not is the most valuable thing you'll do. Because that's where the lessons are.

That's where the learning is. That's where the development is. The letters give you confidence. The letters help you shape who you want to be. And they certainly, if you know what you're doing, help you market yourself. But they're not a definition of who you are. The process of getting there, though, is, because it gives you, or it shapes, or it demonstrates, I don't know what the right word is, that you have the dedication to your craft, that you're willing to get down and push and push and push to be the very best that you can be.

You're never going to be a finished article, or at least I don't think you can be.

Using Insecurity as a Driving Force

I think every day, I mean for me for instance, I wake up every day it's a mix of enthusiasm and energy and ambition and insecurity. I just think, oh I'm not very good but today I'm going to be better. That might not sound like the most reassuring thing in the world but it is what it is.

You know, I've learned to use my insecurities as my driving force. I don't like feeling that way. God, I hate feeling that way. Why would I like feeling that way? You know, I look at some of the photographers out there that are Sometimes massively, they overrate themselves, but they're just hugely confident.

And I'm not that guy. That's not my personality. Mine is to feel, I suppose, um, insecure about my work. But I use that insecurity and that sense of, I wish I was better as my driving force. And everyone has their own driving force. You'll have to find yours. I've found mine. I know what it is. I wish it was something slightly different.

I wish it was something slightly more sort of positive, I guess. I saw a counselor would ask me why, why have I empowered other people to make me feel insecure or something. I have no idea. I've never been to a counselor, but I'm guessing that it's my, my, the energy that I use, the fire that I have might not be the most positive, um, and reaffirming way of doing things.

But for me, it, it is who I am. And it pushes me to do things. It pushes me to try things. It gives me the energy to overcome hurdles and, and create videos or create the website or write a book with someone. Um, terrifying though it is, I just want to be better at it and so I'll keep trying it. Uh, so put yourself forward.

The Magic of Light in Photography

Another thing I'm just thinking of is the headlamps. Headlamps and taillights are all around me. Is learn how to craft lights, or just as importantly, learn how to see light. Learn how it lands on someone's face, or their figure, or a scene, or a dog, or a cat, I don't know. Saw some of the most exquisite, exquisite cat photography today.

Saw some And the author of the panel has learned how to use light to bring out texture and form and character and personality in cats. That's her skill set. It's wonderful. And she's learned how to do it. And, you know, that's where photography stems from. It's all about light. If you're a daylight photographer, learn how to see it.

Learn how to observe. Learn how to almost Smell it out. , you know, you see it. You, you, do you ever get excited be, I mean, even now I'm watching a car ahead of me and I can see the pool of light on the road ahead from its headlamps and it's dark in between the Land Rover and him or her, and then there's a pool of light in front of that car.

Well, that pool of light might be quite an interesting thing to light somebody in. I spent my life doing that. I can't help it. It's like light is addictive. It's like a drug. Finding good light, or interesting light, or light that might give an effect, when, you know, the cars coming the other way, their headlamps are giving the car I'm following, kiss lighting, because of course it's bouncing off the sides of the metal, and I can see these kind of pockets of light along the side of the car, you know, that's just, oh, that'd be really interesting to photograph someone in that kind of lighting, you know, let's say a, you know, a car's headlamps are probably a bit low to the ground, But if you had a truck or something with overhead lights and you could get them to point down so they're above someone's head but you've got other trucks in the distance where they've got their normal almost ground level headlamps on and they they're going to create the backlighting yeah that could be really super interesting and it's that enthusiasm for exploring light that I think photographers need if they're going to create the truly stunning interesting images.

I mean I would say that, I love light. You know, as an Elinchrom ambassador, you'd expect me to say I love light, but I do. I just find it, I don't know why, why, I have no idea why that might be a thing, but I love it. I absolutely love it. And so, yeah, you know, after all of that, I'm sure there's a million things, I'm sure there's a million things that I've missed.

And had I spent the time thinking about it and driving home and writing up my notes and recording the podcast properly in the studio, it would sound a little bit better. I'd be jolted around a little less, um, but it probably wouldn't get done because we're so busy just at the moment. So apologies for me doing a Land Rover edition at 70 mile an hour because I can hear it's noisy, but otherwise I was not going to record one at all.

Um, the time pressures are now such that I really do have to dedicate more of it to mastering portrait photography, to our website, to building the, um, room mock ups to drop pictures into for beautiful framing, to creating interesting ideas on images and writing up notes on old images. Have I said the videos?

I must have said the videos. Oh, maybe I haven't said the videos.

Exciting New Projects and Team Members

We're creating these beautiful videos. We've got so many news joined us in the team. Katie's joined our team, who's amazing. She's great. She's a real breath of fresh air. She's young. And so she sees the world totally different to me. Um, so, you know, between us, I think, hopefully, it's a two way street.

I'll help her understand mostly software. I'm pretty good at picking up software. Um, and so Blackmagic's DaVinci is now another one of the tools that I'm reasonably comfortable with and can get my head around. Um, so I'm helping her get up to speed with that, but in return, she's showing us a young view of creating videos, which there's no way I would have done.

Sarah and I wouldn't have done it that way. But I'm really loving having that around. But it takes time. All of this takes time. And, um, running the workshops, you know, we now run regular workshops and they're going to increase.

Workshops and Community Engagement

Um, because we just love doing them but also it's part of our business model going forward.

Um, and to have time I've got to stop doing so many other things that I've been involved in for a while anyway. So, uh, Yep, standing down and it's all for mastering portrait photography. On that note about workshops, we do have a space actually, we've got a mastering studio lighting workshop which is on Monday the 4th of November, so it's a few weeks away, but there's still a space on there.

I love this day, I think this day is one of my favorite workshops, um, that we do, where we just play with lights, play with ideas, try things out, smoke machines maybe. GoBos, BigLights, SmallLights, um, HighKey, LowKey, you name it, we just play. Because that's by far the best way of learning stuff. Um, you can do whatever way you want.

Some people are bookworms, some people like a video or two. For me, I like messing around, um, and coming up with ideas. So that's on Monday the 4th of November, if you fancy it. Why is it right, when you're overtaking someone, why do they accelerate? Bye. Anyway, um, I don't like motorway driving very much. Everyone's very aggy, people are very aggressive, they just, it's a weird, ever since COVID it seems to be a very weird world. Uh, anyway, where was I? Oh yeah, I just love playing in the studio, and that's the workshop. So it's Mastering Portrait, sorry, Mastering Studio Lighting, uh, on the 4th of November, if anyone fancies it, just Google Paul Wilkinson Photography Workshops, or head over to paulwilkinsonphotography.co.Uk, or similarly, you can go to masteringportraitphotography.com, and the workshops are in there, in the Academy. The same workshops, but they're in the Academy, uh, over there. Eventually we're going to fuse all of the workshops into Mastering Portrait Photography. There's one single entity, so at the moment they're sort of co existing on the two sites, um, but it's the same workshop.

Uh, we will be putting more and more of them up on there.

Subscription Benefits and Pricing

If you subscribe, actually, to Mastering Portrait Photography, um, it's not a lot of money. It's 6. 99 at the moment, as at the time of recording, it's 6. 99 a month, which is actually the same price as the cup of coffee I've got sitting here in my Land Rover.

So it's one very large pumpkin spice latte per month. Um, To join the website, but if you do that, you get an advance notice of the, um, workshops, um, and you get to, uh, jump on them earlier than anybody else. You get to be part of our community, the Facebook community, uh, which we're building, um, making that more and more vibrant and interesting.

And, um, you can post pictures in there and people would jump in and give you tips. If you ask for it, if you don't really want it, then, you know, you can just post your pictures for the sheer joy of it. Uh, so that's all part of it. You get to download any of the tools for free, you get to download any of the room mock ups for free, you get to watch all of the videos and see all of the diagrams and there are hundreds of them.

I did a count up the other day and it's still like 400 diagrams I think, it's a lot. Um, but the whole site is there 6. 99 a month. If you want to spend it, if you want to spend a little less on a bit of a discount and do it over a year then you can enter the annual one. Um, and so if you pay annually it's 69.

99 for the year. Uh, which of course is about, what's that, 10 percent cheaper. You know, have I got that right? It's 10, it's 12 months for the price of 10. There you go. I don't know what that is. It's a mathematical term. I'm going to have to look that up if I'm going to publicize this. Um, uh, but that gives you a slightly better rate.

Slightly cheaper, but also gives you discount codes to the workshops. So not only do you hear about them early, but you get a little bit of a discount on them too. There are a couple of other options on there as well. If you fancy. And no, you're going to book onto our workshops or come to us for mentoring.

There's two other options to, uh, for the membership if you want them, um, and you can have a look on our website for that. Just Google or search for Mastering Portrait Photography Pricing, or just head to our website and hit the pricing, uh, link. So that's where we are.

Final Thoughts and Farewell

I'm just heading south on the M40. Um, I've run out of things that I've remembered to say.

That's not that I have run out of things to say. I just have run out what I have remembered to say. to say. So as I thread my, oh that blooming van's just overtaken me again, um, so as I head my way south on thankfully a relatively clear motorway, uh, I'm going to say thank you for listening if you have listened to the end of this podcast.

I know it's a bit noisy when I'm driving in a Land Rover and recording it, um, if you're hearing it I managed to at least convince myself that the wasn't too bad, it didn't sound too rattly. Well, if you're not hearing it, it means I've pulled this podcast.

I'm not releasing it because it's just not good enough, uh, audio, but thank you for listening to this point. Please do subscribe, wherever it is that you receive your podcasts or you consume your podcasts. By doing so, you'll get to hear the episodes as they come out. So if there are any offers and things, or any last spaces, you get to hear about them first.

Uh, you can hear us on Spotify, iTunes, and all over the place, basically. And whatever else you do in the coming weeks, be kind to yourself. Take care.