Ep. 13 - Haley Toy & Gary Huey - Leave No Trace

Appalachian Outdoorosity

On this episode of Appalachian Outdoorosity podcast, host Dr. Joy James interviews Subaru Leave No Trace (LNT) traveling team members Haley Toy and Gary Huey. The couple shares their personal journeys into outdoor recreation, how they became passionate about the outdoors through a college experience in Yosemite, and their current work educating people on minimizing environmental impact through the LNT principles. They discuss their favorite outdoor activities, challenges, and the importance of balancing personal and professional life while working full-time together. They emphasize that Leave No Trace isn’t about perfection but about being mindful of the environment and learning through experience.

Notes

Haley Toy (she/her) and Gary Huey (he/him)

Subaru/Leave No Trace Traveling Team

www.LNT.org

PO Box 997 | Boulder, CO 80306

[e-mail]

LNT Instagram handle: @leavenotraceorg

Brendan Leonard Climbs 7 Summits … Of His Neighborhood

www.LNT.org

Subaru/Leave No Trace Traveling Teams

Kula Cloth

TRANSCRIPT

Becki

Welcome to Appalachian Outdoorosity, where we encourage you to get outside and keep going outside. Here we will share Appalachian State stories that entertain, inspire, and inform listeners about living an active outdoor lifestyle. Each episode features a story. The goal to get you outside and keep you going outside to improve your overall wellness. This podcast is presented by The Hope Lab, where our purpose is to investigate the role of outdoor physical activity, exercise and play on the health, environment and human development. The vision of the Hope lab is to continue developing the foundation for promoting and supporting outdoor physical activity, exercise and play through interdisciplinary research. Feel free to check us out at hopelab.appstate.edu. Hi, my name is Becki Battista. I am a professor of exercise science at Appalachian State University and a self-proclaimed outdoor physical activity addict. I'm your host for today's episode of the Appalachian Outdoorosity Podcast. In today's episode, Dr. Joy James, a professor in recreation management, sits down with Subaru Leave No Trace traveling team members Hayley Toy and Gary Huey. Together, they delve into the core principles of Leave No Trace, reflecting on their experiences as part of the Subaru LNT traveling team and sharing insights from their own outdoor adventures.

Joy

So, welcome to Outdoorosity. I have here Leave No Trace Team Hayley and Gary, who have generously agreed to give some of their time to tell us a little bit about how they came to the outdoor space, as well as a little bit about Leave No Trace. So welcome, and thank you for being a part of this.

Gary

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Haley

Thank you.

Joy

All right. So what I'm going to do first is have you introduce yourselves kind of where you're from, and then tell us what your favorite outdoor activity is.

Haley

I can start. My name is Hayley, and I grew up in the Seattle area in Washington state. And my favorite outdoor activity right now, it's a toss up between hiking and just sitting outside in the sun and reading a good book.

Joy

I like how you said right now. It changes, doesn't it?

Gary

It does. It really does.

And I'm Gary and I'm from Northern California, and my favorite outdoor activity would be fishing right now. So I enjoy it.

Joy

Line fishing or fly fishing?

Gary

A little bit of both. A little bit of everything. I get out there and catch fish. I enjoy it all.

Joy

Awesome. All right. So I'm going to ask questions and as we've been doing kind of alternate back and forth. My first question for you is how did you first get interested in the outdoors?

Haley

For me, I actually had the privilege to grow up kind of being exposed to outdoor recreation specifically like national parks. So I grew up every summer. My parents were generous enough to take us, like on multiple weeklong road trips. And every summer it was like a whole list of different national parks. So that was kind of my first exposure to the outdoors. And because it came at such a young age, I think those ideas were always kind of instilled in me, whether I realized it or not. But yeah, so I guess from an early age, I had the benefit of just getting to see how much stuff there is to do outside.

Gary

And for myself, I grew up not really doing too much outside, and I played more like traditional sports, like basketball outside. But it wasn't until college where they had a semester right outside of Yosemite called High Sierra, where you spend a whole semester outside, and there's professors out. It was at like a summer camp campus. But there are the professors there and we had a cohort of like 30 to 50 other students. Through that immersive experience. I felt like I discovered a whole other world in the outdoors. And so it was a little later for me.

Haley

And that's also how we met.

Gary

And that's how we met as well. We met that semester. Exactly. I know.

Haley

So, lots of positive outcomes.

Joy

That's what I love about outdoors and recreation is that it connects people, and it is an opportunity to discover oneself as well. So I love that you explained about that immersive experience. I think a lot of people actually are comfortable in outdoor settings through sports, and they don't know about some of this other stuff that's going on, or they just think we're weird because we camp, you know, like, why would you do that? No shower. It's not until you have the experience that you're able to feel comfortable and then connect with others. So that's really cool. So my next question is what are your favorite outdoor activities? We kind of hit that at the beginning, but what are some more that you enjoy doing when you're able?

Gary

Specifically together, we have gone backpacking a bunch. We go car camping, but I feel like a goal we've had within the past only maybe 3 to 4, maybe five years, is that we’ve tried to climb like a bigger mountain or like a little goal every year. And so we've done a few of those together and usually they're overnighters. If not, you know, 1 or 2 nights.

Joy

Multi pitch type climbing or just climbing a mountain?

Gary

More so yeah, just hiking mountains. So we climbed like Mount Saint Helens and Whitney and we did the cables on Half Dome...last year maybe. And so that was really fun.

Haley

Only once a year so far.

Gary

Only once...I know. It takes some planning.

Joy

Was that inspired from this immersive experience that you had or just something you said, oh, we want to climb these mountains?

Gary

You know, it was...What do you think?

Haley

It was him.

Gary

I think the making of the push was I'd have these different photo books of different outdoor photographers, and I'd see all their photos, and I was like, oh, that looks really cool to do. And when you look at an image and you try to do a similar experience, you realize how much planning there is. And so once we saw that, we were like, okay, one a year would be a good goal. And so I don't know. That's where it kind of came.

Haley

It just became that.

Gary

Yeah, it kind of became that.

Joy

I just watched something where a man from Missoula, Montana did the Seven Summits...that he could see from his dog walk.

Gary

Oh, wow. Oh.

Joy

I thought that was pretty...And what he was doing, he said, you know, I don't have $140,000 to go do the Seven Summits around the world. So I'm going to make my own plan. He goes, I walk my dog all the time. And then he showed the different ways he was biking. So it was really interesting. I'll send you the link and I'll include the link in for our listeners, but I, I love how you're like, it's a goal and we do it once a year because of the amount of planning. But I think a lot of our other skills kind of lend itself towards your success, whether you actually make the climb or not. Right? Like the weather might impede or do other things for us. Since you two have different stories about how you came to the outdoors, how do you think you became comfortable in the outdoors? Like it's not always easy to go to the bathroom in the outdoors, not have a shower, be sweaty, be stinky. So how did you get comfortable in the outdoors?

Haley

Not to keep like pumping up this experience that we had during our semester in college in the Sierras, but for me, that really was how I became comfortable in the outdoors. Part of that semester experience. Is that you...I don't want to say you're forced, but you are required to...I felt like I was forced at the time...to go on a backpacking trip in the backcountry of Yosemite, and one of them was in the dead of winter. So it was like late January, maybe early February. That was my very first backpacking trip. And I can't even describe to you how terrified I was. Gary knows because I still talk about it all the time. And everyone also at the time knew. I mean, that was like the one hindrance for me and why I almost didn't participate in that semester program. he morning of we were supposed to leave and I just, I guess, physically made myself sick, like, I, I don't know how my body did it, but I gave myself like, a fever and all of its other symptoms because of out of fear, just because it was so unlike anything that I had ever experienced or thought that I was capable of. Because I had grown up very front country focus, outdoor experiences. We weren't camping out in the backcountry or anything like that. So this was totally new. But getting thrown into it and not really having a choice made me realize that I could do it. And there were a lot of other people like me who that was their first time. You know, for some reason, in my mind, I felt like I was the only person who wouldn't know what they were doing. But we were all really in the same boat, including Gary.

Gary

It was my first time camping..

Joy

I was going to say, it wasn’t even car camping. You were backpacking 40lbs! Crazy!

Haley

In the snow. Yes. It's very. Yeah. Now that we look back and it's like, oh that wasn't really like an easy way to ease into it, but it threw us in. We both fell in love with it. That was the first time in my life that I really felt the feeling of overcoming something difficult or scary for me, and it's a really addicting feeling. So I think that's carried over to like these mountains that we have tried to hike to the top of. It's carried over to like adopting new hobbies and stuff like that. But I try to chase that feeling that I first felt.

Joy

Yeah. Gary, for you?

Gary

Yeah. For myself. How did I become comfortable? I'd say just from going outside so much or spending more time outside, even when I didn't necessarily know what I was maybe doing or if I was doing things, you know, the quote unquote best way, I guess. I remember, like, I think a year after we met, you took me on a road trip to a few national parks. I'd never been on a road trip. I had just, you know, from that semester, learned how to camp. And so I was like, sure, that sounds fun. And I didn't know necessarily what to pack or what to bring, but I just brought whatever I had in college and I think after that road trip, it really was the proof of just, you know, getting out there and bringing whatever you have and making it work. And the more I did it, I felt like the more I kind of knew from the past experience, oh, like, I have this or I liked that, that I had that. And so just doing it a bunch, I feel like, helped me get familiar.

Joy

Gary, you mentioned you'd played sports and were comfortable outside. Haley, you talked about going to parks and just kind of hanging. I'm going to be specific with you, Haley. Just because women have a different experience in some, in some cases not to ostracize you in any way, Gary. So, did you play sports? Did you have any reason to be outside in your home that would have made you comfortable or friends or like, or is it just really the parks, going on, the road trips that kind of piqued your interest?

Haley

Yeah, it was really probably these trips that piqued my interest. I did not grow up playing any sports or doing any hobbies outside. totally different. I grew up in dance and musical theater.

Joy

Yeah. So. And that's fine. So the research shows particularly that it's harder for women sometimes to get involved in the outdoors because of, you know, again, bathroom, shower or animals, insects, weather. And when women and men, or boys and girls play sports, they're kind of used to being uncomfortable and sweaty. And as you are too, as a dancer or in theater, you know, but it was just a different sort of challenge. And so it was wonderful, Gary, to hear you say, hey, just getting out there and doing it, trying it, failing forward, making mistakes. and now I'm sure as Leave No Trace trainers, you have a lot of expertise that you didn't have or you didn't start with. And I think sometimes people get intimidated because it's just too much and yet they don't want to make a mistake. So it's just interesting that you said, hey, the more you do it, the more comfortable you'll become. So this may kind of add on or you may have another story here. but I'm looking for a story that you might have that has influenced you. It could be a funny story. Ha, ha. Like I did this, or it could be something that you learned a lesson, and it's changed how you've done things in your life or in the outdoors. Do either of you have some stories that you would be willing to share with our listeners?

Haley

I could think of like a bunch of 'em, but, I'll share one that comes to mind. He might have the same story too, but fishing has become one of our favorite things to do outside. And I guess kind of the inverse of like the time that we had spent outside. Gary, actually, you did spend time outside because he had spent time fishing a little bit as a kid, but I had never had that experience, and I have always wanted to. I've always been really interested in it and just, I don't know, never was in the right place at the right time to have someone teach me and have all the stuff and the ideal conditions and things like that. But through this job, I think one of the best positive experiences of this job is the people that we have been able to build relationships with in all different parts of the country and all different walks of life. We've made a lot of really amazing friends through this experience, and one of those friends was someone that was able to expose us to fishing, or my first time fishing, which was in Grand Teton National Park.

Joy

Wow, what a place to start!

Haley

I know. We were spoiled. I know. He worked at one of the lodges inside of the park, and we had done some work with him through Leave No Trace, became friends and he was generous enough to take us out on a boat, you know, with the picturesque Tetons in the background. And, just him and his friends were able to teach me at least all the basics. And that feeling of catching your first fish, similar to, you know, going backpacking for the first time. But it was just really empowering and it was just something that I, I don't. It's not common for me that I know nothing about something, but want to learn everything about it. And fishing was that thing for me. And so I got really excited to learn more about it since then, and we have not stopped.

Joy

Do you have a bunch of gear now?

Haley

Yes, too much.

Gary

Too much gear. Side note though, we were on that boat with, I think one of his friends was like a fishing guide, and so he knew exactly where to go and what lures to use. And we were catching fish, like, pretty, pretty frequently. And I told Haley, like, this is not like normal fishing where you have to wait a long time. And we went out a few days later to go fishing and fishing out there was just so good. I said, this is not this is not normal. And so that definitely has a special I learned within our own. Yeah, that was a special, special experience for sure.

Joy

Well and Gary has such a good point. Like sometimes when you start something new you want some successes and then there's some reality like, Haley might not have been hooked if she hadn't caught a fish where she was like oh this is cool.

Haley

I don’t think I would have.

Joy

Yeah. So that's the other thing, too. When I think about how to prime activities for people who are new is like, how can I help them find that little bit of success? Like, I remember backpacking with my nephew and he was 12 and he couldn't believe he made it to the top of the mountain with the backpack on. And we were eating lunch and it was like nothing like what you're doing out the Tetons. It was this little trail up the Pisgah National Forest, and that was such a success for him that he didn't know, like you said, about backpacking, you didn't know you could do it until you did it.

Haley

Exactly. Yeah. That's awesome.

Joy

How about you, Gary? Any story you're willing to share that's influenced you or. Funny.

Gary

Yeah. So in general I'm a very go with the flow kind of person. And so when we're on those road trips I'll just go with the flow and like have to have don't have what I don't have. But one of our trips we went backpacking and we had to canoe to the campsite.

Haley

I knew this is what you...

Gary

Haha Okay. Good. And, you know, I guess it was just from pure lack of experience though. I was like, Okay, like, this is gonna be great. We're going to go backpacking and be on the lake and whatnot. But then what we didn't realize is that we didn't plan to have, like, a water filter, and there's no place to get water other than filtering your own water. And we brought one kind of meal. And then midway through, Haley was like, we're not gonna have enough water to get back. And I said, no, like, we should be fine. And, quickly to realize we probably weren't gonna have enough water to get back. And it all turned out fine because we ran into some people who lent us their water filter, which is super kind of them. But all that to say, when we got back, I think that's when I learned the importance of planning ahead and kind of like mapping out what you might need. And I feel like if it wasn't for that experience, I probably would have been more go with the flow and probably would have gotten in, you know, worse scenarios. And so that's one I always will cherish.

Joy

That's such an important piece, right? Like it's an experience you have to have to inform how you are now. And I will tell you, I still do dumb things, but I'm always like, I hope nobody sees me doing this. I'm a professor and I should know better than to do this. And so I think sometimes as you get more expertise, you become a little more, maybe complacent, or you're like, oh, I can get away with it. And I've done stuff like that. Even having been doing it for 20 or 30 years. So, the thing that I love about your story too, is the sharing of the community, how you've met some people, told them your situation, and they were willing to help you out. And that's what I found myself. It's the wonderful community of people. And thankfully, you were able to find somebody and then make it home.

Gary

They were too nice.

Haley

They even fed us too! They were way more prepared than us.

Becki

Isn't it fascinating how Haley and Gary discuss how immersing themselves in a semester outdoors at Yosemite National Park helped them grow comfortable with nature. They emphasize that simply getting outside and engaging with the environment aids and developing that comfort. Furthermore, they highlight how their work with LNT has facilitated connections with fellow outdoor enthusiasts who are eager to share new experiences, such as fishing. Today's episode is proudly sponsored by the Hope lab. At the Hope lab, we're committed to finding creative ways to promote outdoor activity. Visit appstate.hopelab.edu to explore the myriad of benefits of spending time outdoors. Let's return to the interview to delve deeper into their roles as part of the Subaru LNT traveling teams.

Joy

I wanted to kind of move into your job and what you're doing. I mentioned that you were the Leave No Trace Subaru Team. Is that the title to call you?

Gary

Yeah.

Joy

And if you could kind of share what Leave No Trace is and what your job is, we'd appreciate it.

Haley

Sure. Well, Leave No Trace is actually. Well, the name of it actually comes from an organization which a lot of people don't realize. You know, I think many of us, including us, like when we went on our first backpacking trip, we were taught the concept of Leave No Trace. But we never knew that it actually, you know, the curriculum was being written and put out there by an organization. So that is the organization that we now work for. And essentially our mission is just to get information and education out there and providing resources for people to understand how to minimize their impact when it comes to outdoor recreation specifically. So as one of the Subaru Leave No Trace teams, we really are the people who are like in motion doing that, living it out every single day for the past three years. And, so a lot of what our job looks like is a combination of teaching formal workshops and Leave No Trace trainings for land managers for a student like AmeriCorps, type of youth Conservation corps, university students, even high school, elementary school, and all age students. We also could be setting up a booth and just doing outreach on a more casual level at festivals and events. We just over the past weekend came from PCT days in Oregon for the Pacific Crest Trail thru hikers or other hikers. And, so events like that sometimes will go to festivals and other things and just try to talk to people about what Leave No Trace means to them.

Gary

So a lot.

Haley

Yeah, yeah a lot.

Joy

Are you crisscrossing the country or do you have an area that you focus in?

Haley

Pretty crisscross.

Gary

Yeah. I think it depends on the year. Like I feel like our first few years...more locational. We wouldn't cross too much. But this past year we crossed a lot. We were in Vermont and Florida, and now we’re in the Pacific Northwest.

Haley

It just depends. But we could be anywhere at any time. We're not limited to a region or anything like that.

Gary

Yeah.

Joy

Okay. Do you plan it or does the Leave No Trace organization say, here are the things that we need you to go. Like, how is that being planned for you? Or are you planning?

Gary

Leave No Trace kind of has a calendar of events and places we need to be and when we need to be there.

Haley

Which is very nice because there's a lot of...

Gary

Very nice.

Haley

...logistics behind the scenes that our manager thank goodness for her. She does a lot of that back end work.

Gary

Yeah.

Joy

Yeah. And is three years an average or does usually people work one year and they're gone. What does that look like for the organization?

Haley

It's a mix I think it ranges. So when you first get offered the position, it's a one year contract. And from there you know you can choose, between the two of you, you can choose to continue on or not. And so we just have continued on.

Gary

I feel like a lot of people though, do it for, you either do it for one year or you do it for like 3 or 4 years. I think the longest someone's ever done it, I think, is seven years. I want to say that that was the longest, but...

Haley

Which I don’t think we'll get to.

Gary

Yeah.

Joy

I just assumed it was a one year gig and...

Haley

So a lot of people will do it right after graduating and or, you know, during a transition in career or something like that. Which is awesome that people can get that experience. And then others, I think, use it, as a, as a stepping stone or a foundation for their career in the outdoor industry. Which is kind of more where we ended up going.

Gary

Yeah.

Joy

Oh no. That's, I'm, I'm glad to hear that. Well the next thing I wanted to know was how like, so it sounds like you were introduced to Leave No Trace on that backpacking trip that was kind of foundational. So how did you become interested in wanting to teach and train people about it? What's the story behind your story?

Gary

Yeah, I feel like after that whole experience and learning that Leave No Trace, I feel like it was mostly from wanting to continue being in the outdoor industry. And we saw that this specific year that we saw the position they had, they're emphasizing a kind of digital education as well. And so I have a background in photography. Hayley has a background in graphic design. And, we've always wanted to work in the outdoor industry. We thought that our skills would, you know, mesh well together for the different kind of education of also seeing things online and videos. And so we thought that our skill set personally would be effective there. But being able to mesh that in with our like, personal interests that had become and rooted from that experience, it was kind of like, a perfect fit or like a dream come true in some way of being able to have that opportunity. And so, yeah, we're super lucky.

Haley

Weren’t Expecting it.

Gary

Yeah, we weren't expecting it. We didn't know about it.

Joy

Well, how did you find out about it? Was it a professor or did you see the job come across? Like, how does one find out about this?

Gary

It was so random. We were doing our own gigs, but we saw it on a Facebook group called Base Camp Outdoors, where they post a lot of outdoor opportunities. And so we it just was on our Facebook feed, and we saw it there, and I texted it over to Haley saying, we should, we should, we should apply for this. And she was like, yeah, sure. And I was like, No. Really we should try!

Haley

We should try but I don't think we're going to get it.

Gary

Yeah. Sounded like one of those positions where everyone probably applies and you never hear back, but they look at everyone's applications and yeah, the rest is history after that I guess.

Joy

Haley, this sounds like a perfect gig for you having road trips all your life. And then as y'all were together learning road trips for Gary, and now you're on the permanent road trip right now.

Haley

Totally. I know it's been...we've been really, really fortunate. And it was always a pipe dream, at least for me. And I never really...I was scared to tell anyone, you know, that something I would always want to do is like, spend some time on the road, cross country, ideally with a partner or, you know, someone that I feel comfortable being with 24 seven. But I just never even fathomed that that would be a reality. Especially as a career or, you know, so it was definitely a dream come true.

Joy

Well that's just I've, I've known about this again for years and just always been like, wow, this is such a cool thing for like you said, young people or people in transition from careers. So, I know that people are going to want to know what the skinny is or what it's like working on the Subaru team? Y'all are partners. You're together 24/7. What are things you wish you'd known, and what advice would you give to somebody who maybe wanting to do this and with their partner?

Haley

That's a great question.

Gary

Good question. Yeah.

Haley

People don’t ask that enough.

Gary

Yeah.

Joy

I know I’m making you think too.

Gary

Yeah.

Haley

Well, I think something that we learned very early on was the importance of separating our working relationship and our personal relationship, which is very difficult and still an ongoing process multiple years later. But I think we just learned because this was our experience...you know, we had been in a relationship together for several years before this. So we felt like we knew each other very well. But working together and not just working, you know, at the same company, but like under the same title, you share an email, you're doing absolutely everything together. That was a whole new learning experience. And seeing each other's like, working tendencies and just even personality over, like, communication with other people in a professional sense. We're just different, different people who work differently. And so that was a little bit of a challenge to try and put that, hone all of that in and, and make it effective as a unit. That being said, just trying...It took us a long time, but just trying to figure out as best we can to still find time to be Haley and Gary, the individual people versus Haley, Gary, the Subaru Leave No Trace Team. And so we, I guess like how that manifested is just us trying to find time as much as we can to just separate ourselves from the work, because you just have to because I think this is a job that if you're not mindful, you could...The work life balance could very quickly diminish. And I think Leave No Trace is very... and all of our managers and things like that, They’re very mindful and encouraging us to have a work life balance, which is great. But just the reality, you know, this job is very all consuming. So, very immersive. So having to be intentional for time together, but also alone time.

Gary

Yeah. Yeah. You don't really think about when you're together having a alone time on the road as well.

Haley

You need it.

Gary

So finding your own hobby of what can you do, you know, for this part of the day right there. But doing it separate like doing separate things and so.

Haley

Or just driving. Yeah. Like long long car days and just saying okay, we're not going to talk to each other for the next four hours and we're just going to do our own thing.

Gary

But you need that because in real life, I feel like you never are always with somebody, you know, no matter where you go and what you do. And so trying to add that bit of normalcy of life and independence, I guess, or individuality, not independence.

Haley

Yes, but there are like, I feel like we're not to put a damper on all of it. There are a lot of positives to working with your partner in this sense. And we've been reflecting on this a lot lately, you know, just as it's been a few years now of doing it. But to be able to share all of these experiences with someone, or to have to do it by yourself could be a very isolating experience. And so the fact that our lives are like, so intertwined and, you know, we could just say something about any part of our life. And the other person just knows the full context of that.

Joy

Yeah.

Haley

It’s really special and rare. And we're learning to appreciate that too.

Gary

Yeah.

Joy

Yeah. Well, I appreciate your candor. I think it's, you know, obviously you're communicating very well and you and sometimes it would pay for everyone to be together for 24 hours because we treat each other a little differently than when we get separated. At the same time, to be able to be in the same space and say, I'm not going to talk to you is it's it's not being rude. It's giving people their, their, their opportunities to decompress and be who they are. I think too the identity is important. Like I'm Joy, I could be a partner. I could be a mother, I could be a friend. There's all these different identities at play and you all have merged identities. And that separation is so important.

Haley

Yes.

Joy

You bring that up. Well.

Haley

People combine our names into one all the time. They mix them up. Yeah.

Joy

Yeah. Well, it was funny. Your emails, Haley and Gary. And I was like, well, I think she's speaking for both of them, but I didn't, you know, it's just interesting, right? Because you kind of are manifested as one team, which it's. Yeah, it's a good thing. And, I, I'm always interested how people can be together, like you’re being together and we when we’re outdoors on backpacking trips, you know, that’s a 24/7 thing but you still can manage to get outside of it. Whereas when you’re in a car, you don’t have that. And if you’re mad at each other.

Gary

Yeah.

Joy

It's a whole nother, thing to work through. So. But we all go down that path. I just was curious. Because I think if I saw the job description, you have to when you apply, you apply as a pair, right? It could be two friends. It could be a couple. It's just you have to be ready to be together. Is that kind of the process?

Gary

Yeah.

Haley

Yeah for sure. And they I think they really look out for you know, they really want to see your dynamic between the two of you. And you don't necessarily have to be in a romantic relationship or a partnership or anything like that. You just have to know that you are consenting to spending 24/7 with that person. I remember one of our interview questions, which was really interesting question. They asked us to describe the other person’s strengths and weaknesses.

Gary

Yeah.

Haley

So, that was unique and was, you know, speaks to either wow well or well we knew each other.

Joy

All right. Well, this is an opportunity, this next segment for you to share what you think, the top Leave No Trace tips are. Now I know, leave no trace. Wonderful. There's all kinds. There's front country. There's backcountry. But let's imagine that our audience is kind of new to this idea of Leave No Trace. I know there's the principals. Is there something like, if we had to hit something home, what would be the top two things you'd want to say about Leave No Trace for the listeners to know or what's the education moment that you would want to give on this podcast to help people better understand, Leave No Trace and be able to practice it?

Gary

That’s a great question.

Joy

As yall are thinking, what I can say to the audience is, we'll put the Leave No Trace website up and as I mentioned before, there's this I think it's still seven principles. Yes. And it applies to the front country or the backcountry. And that was a new concept to me about ten years ago. I was like, oh my gosh, that's awesome.

Haley

I've got one that maybe is going to become two. I think that we, you know, we interact with and meet people every single day and talk about Leave No Trace with people, every single day. And so a lot of times we have experienced people, just being a little bit stressed or anxious about the idea of Leave No Trace and just the idea behind these seven principles. You'll see it, whether it's a land management agency listing out the principles on a sign or in a brochure or you see it online or something like that. And I think it has the potential to be daunting or like an information overload, even especially for someone who is maybe doing something specific for the first time or or they're just generally new to it. It is a lot of information, on a lot of different topics. And I think we just try to tell people, don't stress about it. And the goal, the goal isn't to feel like you have to be this perfect model of a Leave No Trace, you know, perfect angel. But it's really just understand the potential environmental impact that we could be making on natural spaces. And we always try to tell people, Leave No Trace. We're not trying to tell people, like, exactly how to live your life, but it's really just we want to be providing these resources and providing this framework so that when you go outside, you will be more informed in your decision making process, whether that's choosing to pick up your trash or pick up someone else's trash.

Haley

That's a very high level one. But, yeah, just trying to diminish the intimidation behind it, I guess, and let people know the information is there for you. And I think that's like, we want everyone to have the information, but we don't want anyone to be more intimidated by the outdoors because of Leave No Trace.

Gary

True.

Joy

That’s a great point. Even now I kind of like I judge myself. and so I hadn't thought about it from that perspective that, hey, this is not intended to make it more, more onerous to be outside. It really is just a resource. It's something it's a guideline. And if you can practice it as best you can, that's great. There's going to be times where you may not or you might forget and, that's that failing forward again.

Haley

Exactly, exactly.

Gary

Which I feel like is a big piece of Leave No Trace as well. Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say too. So I have to think of a tip, Haley.

Joy

That's another example of the two of you thinking like mind meld.

Gary

I think that actually happens. We can kind of know what the other person is going to say.

Haley

We just are one being sometimes.

No, you go ahead.

Gary

No, I'm. I'm trying to think of what now because...

Joy

Well, okay. I'm going to do one for you.

Haley

Oh you do one!

Joy

What about when I have to go to the bathroom in the woods? What's the biggest tip I can know about that?

Haley

Good question. For solid waste. So for poop, the biggest thing, if you had to headline it and people had like .001 seconds to consume information, which sometimes they do is just when in doubt, pack it out. I guess, you know, to not have to worry about, can I dig a cat hole? Do I have the proper materials? How is the soil? If any of that is troublesome at all, it's best to just pack everything out, including your waste, including the toilet paper. yeah. That's always just, like, the safest, safest bet.

Gary

Yeah, so I was going to say, I know, to add on to what you're saying, as I said. Yeah, you have to look up the local regulations, but you're right. Like, if you don't have time or if you're in a place where you don't even know who manages the land, I think that that's a good overarching kind of idea to have in your head or rhyme. A little rhyme to have in your head is When in doubt. Pack it out. Because yeah, wherever you are, packing it out is a great option as well. And you know that's okay there.

Haley

So and same with trash or like food waste too. That's one of our most common questions is people have specific questions about organic food waste like orange peels or banana peels, apple cores. And I don't know, I think people spend a lot of time wondering if they can or can't. And to us it's like, well, if you have to spend that long thinking about whether it's going to harm the environment or not, probably just in that amount of time, you could just pack it out.

Gary

Yeah.

Joy

Yeah. So as you're talking, I remembered I had a Leave No Trace course probably about 20 years ago, it's out in the field and it was my first exposure to the idea of not having a campfire. Because I'd always gone camping, always had a campfire. I'd never thought about the consequences to the dirt or the soil or the organisms that lived in the soil. So, you know, the Leave No Trace person was bringing out their candle, and we had a little and I was like, that's not a campfire. I just totally resisted it. And I think initially, too, I totally resisted packing out human waste. because I didn't quite…again, this is probably the 90s, and I had grown up in a different, different way. And now it's not the same. But it was. I should remember being resistant a little bit to it. And now I have my students who show me how you can have your Nalgene bottle and put your half headlamp on it and get the glowy light. And that's, you know, the idea is to have community around the fire, the light. And, so that's how far I've come with Leave No Trace in 20 years is that I'm now like, oh, no fire, no problem. Oh, to pack it out. Yeah, I get it. No problem. But the initial adoption of it, I remember being a little. What? I'm sure you get that. Now if people are like what?

Gary

Totally.

Haley

Yes, that's awesome that you had that growing experience.

Gary

Were there any other things of Leave No Trace that were kind of surprising to you or, like you said, a little resistant to at first, but shifted over or not shifted over?

Joy

Really it was the campfire because, and I think you bring up a good point, Gary. I had an idea of what I thought camping or backpacking was. And I remember fondly sitting by a campfire. and it never occurred to me that I was doing damage. So, that kind of was an educational thing. More recently, you'll have my students who just roll their eyes because I talk about dog poop and how we need to be picking it up. And, that 20, 25 years ago was not something that was being done front country or backcountry. Trying to explain to people that, you know, there are these, you know, they're eating manufactured food that has different things, you know, the whole line.But I it it did take me a while because, you know, dogs like you said about organic Haley, you know, orange peels. Oh, we forget that there's pesticides or there's stuff on it that's being put into the natural environment. So it's been over the years that I’ve started to realize the why behind the pack it out. And you can't always get that why in the first meeting. But as you or at least I've found, as I've grown more interested and engaged in the outdoors, I understand the why and I'm more receptive to listening to it.

Haley

That’s a great testament to our goal, you know.

You couldn't have said it better. Yeah. Just trying to get people, all of us, you know, even us. We're still constantly trying to understand the why behind certain things. But you're totally right in that once you do understand the why, that changes everything.

Joy

Yeah.

Haley

And that also just speaks to like when we see someone who is maybe doing something that, in our opinion, or maybe we wouldn't do, we like to give the benefit of the doubt and just think, you know, there's a lot of people who have not had the opportunity to learn the why, whether that's through the resources available to them or just the education opportunities.

So try not to assume that people are purposefully harming the environment. And in most cases, we'd like to believe that they're not doing it.

Gary

Yes, but.

Joy

Haley, that's such another great point. Like, often people haven't had the same opportunities or they've had different. And I had never connected it with that's the why. Like knowing the why helps me to to implement to the best of my abilities. Some of the Leave No Trace. So great, great point.

Becki

Haley's insights into the challenges newcomers face with Leave No Trace resonates deeply. She underscores the value of doing your best and not allowing the fear of not perfectly adhering to the principles to hinder your enjoyment of the outdoors responsibly. Additionally, Joy's personal journey with LNT demonstrates how grasping the underlying reasons behind its principles can enhance your ability to put them into practice effectively. Let's get back to the interview for our segment, Getting the Dirt on Haley and Gary's experiences in the outdoors.

Joy

Well, I could talk to you all forever, and I know you've got other things you need to be doing. I have a few more questions, and what I'll do is sort of like a rapid fire thing, and we call it Getting the Dirt. Often we've interviewed people here who are local to App State. So if I ask you questions that are local, go ahead and pick somewhere where you want to be, because our listeners, we want to encourage people to get out in the Boone area.

So if they kind of know about a location they can go to. Well, for you, we're going to say the sky's the limit and we might then aspire to get to where y'all have been. So the first question is, what is your biggest fear in the outdoors?

Gary

So I feel like I know your worst fear better than I know my own worst fear Yeah. Your worst fear is running out of food.

Haley

Oh yeah.

Gary

Yeah. That's your biggest. Well, mine is probably, like running out of gas because we drive in so many...

Haley

He’s very paranoid about it.

Gary

... areas where we don't see gas stations for, like, maybe 100 miles.

Haley

Fine.

Joy

If you all have half a tank and no food, there's a problem.

Gary

Oh, yeah.

Joy

All right, so what is an embarrassing outdoor moment that you've had?

Gary

I know mine.

Haley

I know yours too.

Gary

Oh, do you know, mine? Well, we were, we had a program with the Access Fund. I have never said this story either, which is crazy how you know. So the Access Fund, help restore, like, trails to climbing areas or climbing crags and whatnot. And so the climbing stewards offered to take us climbing one day and we were like, oh, that's so awesome. Like, we have some climbing gear. Because we climb. We’ve gym climbed a lot and climbed some outdoors, but we wouldn't consider ourselves climbers right? We climb but we are not climbers. So we’re like, oh yeah. We'll go crack climbing in Indian Creek, and I put my harness on upside down. And that was one of the most embarrassing things because it had been in storage for a while, you know. I was the first one to go up and in front of all of these experts, I like I put my climbing harness upside down and they are like, oh, I think it's upside down. And I was just so mortified.

Haley

What's really sad about that is like, we had just spent the whole winter climbing pretty regularly in a gym. I feel like you definitely.

Gary

I know. I know how to tie my knots. I know how to climb.

Haley

It was out of anxiety I guess.

Gary

Maybe I was, yeah, a little shy in front of them. It was so embarrassing.

Joy

I feel that pain. That's something I would do.

Haley

I don't have any embarrassing stories.

Gary

You don’t have any?!

Haley

I mean, I think I can only think of when I am able to hook on to a fish. Like there's no specific moment, but when I hook on to a fish, because I'm still new to it, and I think it's just part of my personality, I tend to get a little loud.

Gary

Overreact a little.

Haley

I tend to scream a little bit, and sometimes I'm still working on being brave enough to pick up the fish and hold it. And so like sometimes if other people are there or if other people see from a distance, yeah. I just really freak out. I guess.

Gary

Yeah.

Haley

Oh, or when I have a bite, but I lose the fish. That's really embarrassing for me.

Gary

Yeah.

Haley

Sometimes if we’re fishing in really remote areas, I'm not great at practicing. principle number seven. “Be considerate of others.”

Joy

Well, those are perfect. So much happens to us in outdoor settings and yet the community still went out there and climbed. You still are out there fishing, and pushing through that embarrassment. I think it helps others to see that Oh, I'm human. I'm going to make mistakes or I'm going to have something happen. And then and Haley, you're talking about this. I'm a beginner. And so I, you know, I have other things that are going on like. I can tell you, I will not take a hook off of a fish. I don't like it. I don't want to put a worm. I don't want to put a worm on the hook.

Gary

Yeah I didn’t either.

Joy

But if there's a kid there, I'll do it. But if there's no other kids, I'm like, you do it. And because I want to show I could do this, but it's like, oh, I'm very squeamish about it. So I think also as beginners, that's when our most embarrassing moments occur or and Gary, you kind of clarified was like, we're climbers, but we're not climbers. So we dabble in these activities and so sometimes our nerves could be a little bit up here and we’re not paying attention to down here. That's perfectly normal. That’s why I like to see what other people's embarrassing moments are. Between the two of you, you can answer as one, or you can answer as individuals. What is your must have piece of outdoor equipment that you never leave home without? Like if you were in the outdoors, what did you have to have equipment wise in order to feel like you have what you need?

Haley

There's a lot.

Gary

There is a lot.

Haley

So how many can we list? Put to the top of this one?

Gary

I can answer. I know mine. Mine's actually pretty basic though. Mine is and this is what I kind of have told my family to. And they're kind of wondering like, what should I pack? Like what jacket? I always say, and what I do with myself, is that I always bring, like, my thickest down jacket that I can compress a little bit smaller anywhere I go, just to have that like sense of peace, of mind, of yeah, no matter how cold it gets, I at least have like The warmest Jacket I own. So, I feel like no matter where I go, what I do, if I don't really know. Because, you know, it's kind of hard to tell the weather in some areas, like, you know, the exact area that we're going to be camping or backpacking, too. I always bring my warmest, like, down jacket just to have that peace of mind. So yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Haley

I guess mine would be probably my Kula cloth which, if anyone does not know what that is, it is a well, it's one brand of a reusable pee cloth. I have a bunch of them now. And just recently I got a custom Leave No Trace Kulah cloth, which is my new favorite, but it's, mainly, well, anyone can use it, but for women who need to pee and you don't have toilet paper or toilet. It's kind of an antimicrobial pee cloth. And you can clip it onto your backpack or, I don't know, keep it folded in your pocket. They come in all different fun patterns, and especially in our job. And because we're camping so much like every night, I bring it in the tent with me and it's right by my head. So that when I have to go in the middle of the night or first thing in the morning, I bring it on hikes. I bring it literally anywhere.

Gary

Yeah, it doesn't smell at all, it's super nice.

Haley

And you can wash them.

Joy

I've never ...I've never heard of them. I'm going to go look it up.

Haley

Yes. It's K-U-L-A.

Gary

You la go okay, okay. Like, you.

Haley

Know, they're based they're actually based out in Washington state. and they're really great and Leave No Trace did a lot of work with them as well to get Leave No Trace messaging out there, but.

Gary

I had to go.

Haley

Meet them. Yeah, they're really fun. They come in all different patterns and stuff.

Joy

I'll look it up and I'll put it on the website for our listeners as well. One last question. What's your favorite local spot like? If you could just go anywhere, daily or once a year, what where is it that you're going to tend to go?

Gary

Is that so many places? Yeah, I love the...

Joy

Yeah. Do you even have, like, is there a home base for you? No, you're just all over. So what kind of space do you like when you get to these places? What are you gravitating towards as, like that decompress or what do you need to separate or. You're in the same area, but you might go to the lake and you might go on a hike. What kind of spaces do you need to be able to reconnect with who you are?

Haley

That's a good question. Yeah, I would go pretty much anywhere in the state of Wyoming. I'm in Wyoming. I'd be happy, but I just think it's beautiful. We spent a good amount of time there throughout our travels, and I just think it has the perfect blend of mountains and wide open spaces. And granted, I have not spent much time there in the winter. So I guess in my ideal situation, it's summer there.

Gary

For me, this is actually probably not a local spot, but it's kind of a new place that I really enjoy nowadays. because we talk a lot about fish. We have talked a lot about fishing. this past hour, but we mostly had done trout fishing at first. But when we were in Florida this past year, we had done a lot of saltwater fishing and specifically a pier and bridge, saltwater fishing. And so that whole pier. So it didn't have to be in Florida, but going to appear Outer Banks the Outer Banks. Even in California, Washington, they have a lot of piers and just that community of, you know, everyone's sharing knowledge and information. And it's a really relaxing time, I'd say, to go fishing. So I like pier fishing a lot.

Haley

It's way less stressful than, like, trout fishing.

Gary

Yeah.

Joy

What's so interesting that you bring that up to my cousin's son? And my cousin and her husband are not outdoor people, and he is a young kid. So I'll show you the cartoon character, go fishing or something like that. And he's like, mom, take me fishing. And it's the same sort of idea. He he has been educated by this community where he was going out in Chicago, at the lakes or the piers to be able to, and, again, such an eloquent way of saying, you know, you can come in and be a part of a community without ever knowing these people because you love fishing.

Gary

You have a commonality. Totally. Yeah.

Joy

Oh, thank you both for your time. It was interesting to see how your professional brains work, and then kind of get to know you as a personality. We appreciate your time.

Gary

Yeah, I thank you.

Becki

As we wrap up this episode, we want to share some resources for you. Check out this episode's notes page for resources on Leave No Trace, Kula Cloths and how to join the LNT Traveling Team. We extend our heartfelt gratitude to Haley and Gary for sharing their invaluable insights and stories with us. The Appalachian Outdoorosity Podcast is the brainchild of Melissa Weddle, Becki Batiste, and Joy James. Special thanks to our dedicated podcast producer, Dave Blanks from App State University Communications for his exceptional work behind the scenes. We leave with you the following quote by Chief Seattle. "Take only memories. Leave only footprints."