Episode 336 with Heather Reeves

Self Defense Gun Stories

Introduction-

Rob- Welcome to episode 336 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Heather Reeves. What has been keeping you so busy since we talked?

Heather Reeves

Heather- Hi, Rob. I’ve been enjoying the last few weeks of crazy holiday madness with family and friends, and learning new software to help edit my podcast, Everyday Carry Chicks.

How about you?

Rob- I’ve been shooting my new firearm that I got back from ATEi in Michigan. I’ve been listening to your podcast. While you were busy recording your podcast, our show received new ratings and comments on iTunes.

Chester said this was an amazing resource, and he likes that it is free.

Another listener said he learns how fast these events can happen and we help him develop plans for self-defense.

I also want to thank Roger for his help again this week.

Dwayne sent in a story. Thank you, Dwayne.

We also had some people ask about writing for the podcast, so that was my Christmass present.

Heather- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on the episode webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Greenfield, Indiana.

Rob- First story- Are you armed as you drive?

It is very clear that this story was taken from a police report. We know the incident happened in a car, but we know neither whose car it was nor who was driving.

We know you were in a car with your ex-boyfriend. You have a restraining order out against him. That means it is a crime for him to deliberately come within several hundred feet of you.

It is about 1 in the morning. Your ex-boyfriend hits you. You tell him to stop. You present a firearm and shoot him when he doesn’t. Now he stops and runs away. You drive to a nearby business and ask for help. It isn’t clear if you had to drive in another car or if you were originally driving your own car. You call the police and stay at the business until they arrive. You give the officers a statement.

The officers find your attacker and arrest him. They apply emergency first aid until Emergency Medical Technicians arrive. EMTs take your attacker to the hospital for treatment of a gunshot wound to his arm. He is arrested upon release from the hospital and is now in jail without bond. He was recently arrested for a parole violation.

You are not charged with a crime.

Rob- Heather, what did our defender do correctly?

Heather- Abusers try to make their victims think that abuse is normal. Our defender thought that she faced an unusual risk from her ex. She got a restraining order. She bought a firearm and learned how to use it. Last year Indiana became a constitutional carry state, so she neither needed a carry permit nor did she have to wait for one.

She recognized that it was an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat when an adult man was punching her as she sat in her car. She defended herself until the threat ran away. She drove to a safe location and asked for help. She talked to the police. She took them back to the scene and showed them what happened to her.

Rob- This story leaves us with several questions. Who was driving and why or how did the defender let her attacker into her car.

Heather- We don’t know if the attacker kidnapped her. You want your firearm on your body so it is there when you need it. If you’re in a car, you don’t wait until you see a car crash about to happen to put your seatbelt on. Your gun should be treated the same way. If you want to be able to use it, you must have it on you. If you ever take out a restraining order and have to meet your abuser, then we want you to do so with lots of witnesses you brought with you. Preferably big armed men who also have pepper spray in their pocket.

Rob- Is there more you want to cover on this story, or should we go on?

Heather- Let’s go to Chicago, Illinois for our second story.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• The defender realized that her ex-boyfriend was a possible danger to her and she wisely took out a restraining order on him.
• The defender also had a gun near her in the car when the ex-boyfriend assaulted her.
• She realized that she was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation and she shot the ex-boyfriend in order to stop the beating.
• After the ex-boyfriend ran off, the defender drove away to gain some distance / safety, called 911 when she stopped and gave the police a statement.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• Did the defender originally let the ex-boyfriend in her car willingly or was she kidnapped? If she let the “ex” in her car willingly, she used very poor judgment and she put herself into a very dangerous position tactically. It’s not unusual for battered women to keep going back to their abusers even after they are repeatedly beaten and emotionally abused. The abusive boyfriends become masters of manipulation and they temporarily convince the women that they are sorry and that they won’t hit them again. The abusers can be very charming until the tensions and anxiety build up and they finally lash out again. It’s a vicious cycle.
• If the ex-boyfriend had kidnapped her, the police would have charged him with that.
• The restraining order probably was not violated if the woman allowed the ex-boyfriend to get near her.
• The defender should have brought a friend or two with her when she and the ex-boyfriend met. Or they should have met in a very public place and driven there separately.
• The defender should have had a non-lethal option with her as well as a gun.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed in public?

It is late on a Saturday afternoon. You are approached by four teenagers as you walk down the street. They are armed and tell you to hand everything over. Your wallet has an Illinois Firearms Owners ID card inside. You have a gun on your hip. You present your firearm and shoot the armed attacker who is closest to you. The three other attackers run. You call 911 and stay at the scene.

You put your gun away before the police arrive. EMTs take your attacker to the hospital where he is pronounced dead from a gunshot wound to the chest. You show the police your identification and your carry permit. You are 68 years old. Your attacker was 19. You are not charged with a crime.

Heather- The 68 year old defender realized that he was a potential target of violent crime, especially in his neighborhood. He took the time, the money and he made the effort to get his carry license. That’s neither cheap nor easy in Chicago. The defender presented his gun and fired it when he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation where he was being robbed by four, armed teenagers. The defender stayed at the scene, called 911 and then gave a statement to the police.

Rob- Are there other things that weren’t mentioned in the news story?

Heather- There are a lot of things that weren’t mentioned in the story. In general, we want to avoid drawing our gun when another person already has their gun pointed at us, so we don’t know what the older man did to avoid getting shot.

We can wait for a distraction, create a distraction, or move as we draw. Ideally, we’d move to cover.

Rob- It seems this defender only shot once.

Heather- You want to shoot the closest attacker and then start on the next closest attacker. You can keep shooting until they are out of range or until you can retreat to cover. Then again, we don’t know what was behind the bad guys, so maybe our defender was saving lives by not shooting.

Rob- Does that mean I might have to shoot an unarmed attacker who has his back to me?

Heather- It might. The three of them could turn around and kill you, so you need to stay observant of the situation until they are so far away that you could stop them one at a time.

Rob- When do you tell your students about those sort of legal details in armed defense?

Heather- We start covering legal with our Concealed Handgun class, and never really stop. When it comes down to it, there is a legal component to every class we teach, because with each course, students get a bit more detail and are ready to hit the different high and low points of what the legalities of using force to defend your life are.

You also want a pre-paid legal plan so your lawyer covers the important points in your police statement. Your lawyer can decide if he wants to make a statement to the press. You don’t.

Rob- Where are we going for our next story?

Heather- We are headed to Fort Worth, Texas.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• The 68 year old defender realized that he was a potential target, especially where he lived. He took the time, the money and he made the effort to get his carry license. That’s neither cheap nor easy in Chicago.
• The defender presented his gun and fired it when he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation where he was being robbed by four, armed teenagers.
• The defender stayed at the scene, called 911 and gave a statement to the police.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• The story isn’t clear how the defender was able to draw and fire his gun before four, armed teenagers did. Did he use “tactical patience” or distractions? Did he fire from a retention position since he was probably very close to his robbers?
• The defender only shot one of the armed teenagers. He’s very lucky that the other three, armed teenagers decided to flee rather than stay and shoot at him. Did the defender know how to engage multiple attackers?
• The news report for this incident was extremely biased. It called the armed, teenage attacker a “victim” and the 68 year old defendant “the shooter”. Unfortunately in many parts of this country, the media tries self-defense cases online and in the papers long before they ever see a courtroom.

Rob- First this message from the Second Amendment Foundation.

Second Amendment Foundation

https://www.saf.org/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed at home?

And here https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12897077/Texas-woman-shot-dead-teenager-break-fort-worth.html

It is just after noon when you hear someone try to open one of the windows in your house. You and your four daughters are at home. You grab your gun. You think there are several people outside your home and you shout for them to leave. You call 911 and ask for the police. The police arrive and you give them a statement. The officers take photographs and then leave.

A half hour later, you hear someone force the window open in your four year old daughter’s bedroom. The intruder starts to enter your home and you shoot him. Again you call 911 for help. Police find a man outside. He has a bullet wound to the chest. EMTs pronounce him dead at the scene. Again, you give the police a statement.

You are not charged with a crime, but you get an eviction notice from the property management company that manages the apartments. They say to call the corporate office. The corporate office says to contact the local managers. You have to find a new place for you and your family to live.

Heather- Our defender’s apartment was broken into a few months earlier when the family wasn’t at home. The defender recognized a threat and bought a firearm to defend her family. During the first attempted break-in that day, the defender successfully used verbal commands to stop multiple home intruders. Great job.

During the second attempted break-in that day, the defender shot the teenager who was forcing the window open. The armed mom again called 911 and again gave a statement to the police. Well done.

Rob- What else would you like us to do?

Heather- Texas is a Constitutional Carry state, so the defender didn’t need a Texas License to Carry. I want her to get one anyway because it shows the police that you have a clean criminal record. It identifies you as one of the good guys who carry a gun.

Texas is also a Castle Doctrine state so the defender is not required to retreat inside her home. Some states do not have Castle Doctrine so you have to know the laws in your state. Some states require that an intruder must be completely inside the four walls of the home in order to justify the use of deadly force. Take a class on the Use of Deadly Force in your state.

Also, our defender should consult a lawyer concerning keeping a gun in a subsidized rental property. There have been a number of lawsuits concerning this. You don’t give up your rights, particularly in Texas, if you get a rent subsidy.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?

Heather- Our fourth story took place in Houston, Texas.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• The defender had multiple home break-ins and she decided to buy a gun.
• During the first attempted break-in that day, the defender successfully used verbal commands to stop multiple home intruders.
• During the second attempted break-in that day, the defender shot the teenager forcing the window open.
• The defender called 911 and gave a statement to the police both times.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• Texas is a Castle Doctrine state. The defender is not required to retreat in states that have Castle Doctrine. Some states do not have Castle Doctrine.
• Some states require that an intruder must be inside the four walls of the home in order to use deadly force. Some states do not require this. KNOW THE LAWS IN YOUR STATE. Take a class on the Use of Deadly Force or consult a lawyer.
• The defender should consult a lawyer concerning keeping a gun in a subsidized rental property. There have been a number of lawsuits concerning this.
• The defender gave an interview with local media- not a good idea. Did she consult her lawyer first? Probably not. Giving detailed statements and interviews to the media and even to the police is the job of a self-defense lawyer.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at home?
You hear someone knocking on your door. It is almost 8 in the morning on a Saturday. You are not expecting visitors. You go to the door armed. You hear a woman calling for you to open the door. You open the door and the strange woman attacks you. You step back and defend yourself. Finally, you present your firearm and shoot your attacker. Now she stops hitting you and you stop shooting.

You call 911 and ask for help. You put your gun away when the police arrive. EMTs take your attacker to the hospital. You give a statement to the police. You are not charged with a crime.

Heather- I like that the defender owned a firearm and had it nearby when they were at home. Ideally, it was on his body in a holster. I like that the defender’s windows and doors were locked. I like that he had the gun with him when he answered the door. He forced the criminal to climb the ladder of deterrence. Our defender tried to push her back outside. He tried to hit her after she hit him. Finally, he had to use his firearm to stop the attack.

The defender stopped shooting when the attacker stopped hitting him. He called 911, stayed at the scene, and gave the police a statement.

Rob- What else do you see here?

Heather- Most deliberate criminals are intoxicated when they commit a burglary or robbery. We don’t know if this attacker was a criminal or if she was drunk or drugged from the night before.

We know we don’t want to open the door. You can talk through a closed door without standing directly in front of the door. Criminals have been known to shoot through closed doors so we want to stand to the side with a phone in our hand and the gun in the holster.

I also want you to have an outside security camera or a doorbell camera. Bonus points if you have one that has a speaker in it for two way communication with the person at the door.

If someone claims to need help, then offer to call the police, call for a tow truck, call a friend, but don’t open the door and hand them your phone.

Be prepared to defend yourself if an attacker kicks down your door. Carry your gun at home and learn how to shoot from a retention position.

Reinforce the lock and hinges of your entrance door with longer screws that go into the wood framing, not just into the door jamb.

Again for bonus points, Install hurricane film on all glass windows within reach of the door lock.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• Fortunately, the defender was armed when they answered the door.
• The defender was able to fight off the attacker and eventually shoot the attacker.
• The defender stopped shooting when the attacker stopped hitting them.
• The defender called 911 and gave the police a statement.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

• DON’T OPEN THE DOOR!! Never open the door to anyone you don’t know or trust. Answer a call at your door from a window or talk through a closed door without standing directly in front of the door. Criminals have been known to shoot through closed doors so stand to the side.
• The defender was inconsistent- they were cautious enough to have a gun with them when they answered the call but they opened the door anyway!
• Install a security camera or a doorbell camera.
• If someone claims to need help, offer to call the police, towtruck, friend, etc. for them. Don’t open the door and hand them your phone.
• Be prepared to defend yourself if an attacker kicks down your door. Carry your gun at home and learn how to shoot from a retention position.
• Reinforce the lock and hinges of your entrance door with longer screws that go into the wood framing, not just the door jamb.
• Install hurricane film on all glass windows within reach of the door lock.
• Keep your windows/doors locked and carry your handgun with you at home. If your gun is not within arm’s length it’s useless. A small handgun in your pocket is worth more than a dozen rifles upstairs in a closet.

Exit-

Rob- Heather, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Heather- Look at my gun store website, Wolverinedefenseacademy.com.

I list more classes at agirlandagun.org under the Portage, Michigan chapter.

Rob- After you look at Heather classes, then please leave her a message on the episode webpage.

Heather- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes.
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Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. Happy New Year, and we’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

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